Phoebe Sherman (06:02):
Hello creatives. Welcome to Girl Gang Craft the podcast. I have Chelsea here today and we go way back like way, way, way back to guys and dolls in like what the fourth grade. We did a lot of theater together. We share a lot of mutual friends. We shared just one part, Lena Lamont and Singing in the Rain. Yes.

Chelsea London (06:25):
Double casting.

Phoebe Sherman (06:28):
So Chelsea's doing some really cool things and I'm so excited to have you here, Chelsea today. Welcome to Girl Gang Craft the podcast.

Chelsea London (06:36):
Woo. Thank you for having me. Thank you for being a girl with the gang and crafting

Phoebe Sherman (06:41):
Who are you and what do you do? Tell the folks listening.

Chelsea London (06:45):
Wow, who am I? We're getting loaded deep. I'm an actress and comedian. I also volunteer as a grief counselor. I'm originally from the Bay, not far from where you are from in Marin. And I use comedy as a lens to explore grief and perspective. But yeah, the two main things I do are acting and grief stuff.

Phoebe Sherman (07:06):
So let's start with the acting stuff cuz I know a lot of our community is like wow, an actor that's like a little bit different than from a lot of people's world that may be listening. So tell us a little bit about that world and what it's been like for you navigating the world of la.

Chelsea London (07:23):
It's a fun and funky time. I studied theater at U S C and have continued to live in Los Angeles since. So it looks like commercials, television, film, theater and standup. My main focuses is are comedy. So the things I actively build and promote are a comedic grief podcast called Dying of Laughter, doing standup around Los Angeles that is often grief based and it's very much a freelance lifestyle. So often you have a really great year, you might have a slower year, it can ebb and flow, but generally it gets a little better over time. It is very competitive, a lot of people wanna do it. So that's, you know, good and bad good in that it's fun to have healthy competition and to push yourself and then it has its challenges when you're trying to make a living and not necessarily doing that. But a lot of artists these days have multiple revenue streams.

(08:15)
Perhaps that's relatable to those listening with multiple gigs, freelance life. So in addition to acting and doing commercials, which pays the most, I help artists grow social followings, help them build their podcasts and social media followings, which is something I think is actually fun. Bringing your authenticity and your real self to your social media. I know you are very gifted at that and always bringing an authentic perspective to those spaces. I also host karaoke nights for like high profile weddings and events. So I like bring karaoke to like celebrity weddings. I don't know, I've got a

Phoebe Sherman (08:52):
Lot of ways I didn't know that. That's awesome.

Chelsea London (08:55):
Yeah, I can never post it cuz it's like private and stuff, but like it's wild. And by the way, as you would know, people listening would not know that I do not have a strong vocal quality. Like I'm very confident, I love comedic rapping, but like I can't actually sing. So the fact that I have that job is in and of itself hilarious to me.

Phoebe Sherman (09:15):
So you can't like name drop any weddings lately or anything.

Chelsea London (09:18):
I literally can't. But, if you wonder if it's happened, it may have. I'll leave it there.

Phoebe Sherman (09:25):
That's hilarious. Okay, so let's start with a little bit of your acting. And I'm really interested in also going into the other stuff too. I think a lot of people listening can really understand the freelance life, the revenu streams, that's something I preach, right? Let's not put all your eggs in one basket and you might like a new basket. You never know. So first of all, acting, what would we know You from L

Chelsea London (09:51):
You're like, I'm not a famous actress, but most people are not. I'm currently in Wayfair commercials with Kelly Clarkson. So those are airing nationally. There's been three spots that have come out so far, so that's really fun. I think that might be it, but I can share those with you to link if you'd like. I have one line in this Netflix film called, we have a Ghost right now starring Te Nataro, David Harbor from Stranger Things and my personal Fade, Jennifer Coolidge. So that's an example of a really big booking to be a Netflix film and at the same time it's one line, it's short and sweet, it's by no means a lead, but it was really fun to do. I had a small role on Barry directed by Bill Hader. I've also done commercials for Alaska Airlines, K F C, Facebook, et cetera. So those are some of the things I'm most excited about. You wouldn't necessarily have known them or seen them, but it's a good time and it's taken a long time to get to the place to work. I would say semi consistently. But yeah, you probably haven't seen those things and that's okay too.

Phoebe Sherman (10:53):
I remember when your Alaska commercial came out, was that sort of like your first major commercial?

Chelsea London (10:59):
It's a good point, yes and no. I guess I'll say yes and like that's something that everyone saw because it was on all the Alaska Airlines planes for summer. So if you flew Alaska at all you had seen it. But it's funny because I definitely had done a lot of things before then, but it's like people don't know what it is. I'm sure maybe people can relate of like you have this big project or you get a big gig or you, you know, you sold this awesome painting if you're in the craft world or you had a really big social media client. But often people haven't seen that. So I had had some successes before that, but like you said, you know, people haven't seen it. So yeah, Alaska, let's go with that as like a first big win. It was really fun. It was one day it was hard because it was a big paragraph straight to camera and there was maybe 50 people watching me as I delivered it. And often commercials you have like one line, it's like short and sweet. But that was a big paragraph. So that was actually a lot of pressure. But I'm glad it worked out and it was fun and I'm, I'm just happy it came out.

Phoebe Sherman (11:59):
So okay, how does that work? How did you get that gig? What does the like longevity look like with that and what's the word were you like not a commission but I'm such a newbie. What's the Residuals, thank you residuals. What does that look like? You wanna

Chelsea London (12:14):
Talk about the payment structure of the entertainment industry. That's an interesting time to do that because there is a massive writer strike due to the lack of income and the problematic systemic issues relating to residuals, which is a whole podcast. But the process is you have an audition that comes through your commercial agents. It is possible to audition without a commercial agent. And if you're interested in doing that, the websites I recommend signing up for are casting networks and actors access. Those are two sites where you can upload your photos and materials and self submit, which is something that I still do to this day. I think as a freelancer, as an entrepreneur, it's always important to you hustle your own gigs in addition to help you might get from referrals or agents or bosses. So I think it's, you know, part of being like a badass and a boss babe is hustling your own work.

(13:02)
So that's something I continue to do to this day. I do a lot of indie films in different states around the country and that's usually because of a connection I've made or I self submitted. You know, my LA reps are focused on LA jobs, which is great, but they're often the most competitive gigs. So I'm like, cool, I would love to do this film in Arkansas and I'm gonna self submit to that. So yeah, I think last started films in Miss Mississippi, Arkansas, Missouri. I'm on hold for film in Minneapolis right now, so that's really fun to me. Back to your question, the audition comes through a commercial agent. If you are interested in getting a commercial agent, I have thoughts on that. You need really, really strong photos and a little bit of improv experience. The photographer I'd like to plug is Leah Hubner.

(13:42)
If you're ever in Los Angeles, I think she's the most affordable and the best. And you can take online classes at UCB or Groundlings anywhere in the country. So if you'd like a little bit of experience, I prefer in person, I think it's more powerful for something like improv. But the fact that these amazing schools do have online options is really cool. So no matter where you're listening from, Groundlings and UCB are the two schools I would plug. If you ever wanted to take a Zoom class, the audition comes in, in those days you would go in person. Now it's usually on Zoom and you do your thing. You have, you know, the night before you get the material, you show up dressed in character, deliver the monologue, I did it multiple times. Then you come back in a second time for a callback, then you are put on hold.

(14:27)
There's about two to four people that are put on hold for each spot. So being on hold is like really exciting but then like really upsetting when you don't get it because you know you're holding the dates, you're a top choice. And I've been on hold dozens of times and then you didn't get it. This one I happened to get you go into shoot, it's about a 12 to 15 hour day for, as you've seen, this spot is 30 seconds. So it's a lot of time for a very short project in the end. And that project was before I was in the union. I'm in the union saga after, which is the Screen Actors Guild. That was a non-union project. So residuals are significantly lower if applicable at all, which is why you wanna be in the union. You'll get paid a lot more. I'm telling you my Wayfair commercials, I'm getting paid 5, 6, 7, 8 times more than I got paid for Alaska Airlines that said they did what it's called a buyout.

(15:19)
So you negotiate upfront, we're not gonna give you residuals, but we will give you X amount of dollars. And I do have good agents that were able to negotiate a fair rate, but I will say I'm happier being in the union. The rates are better and also qualify you for health insurance, which is very important. And the short sentence I'll say about the writer strike is because streaming platforms such as Netflix, Hulu, and Amazon exist, there are no commercials on those platforms, which means there's less advertising, which means there's less dollars for the creatives and the people at the top get all the money and the creatives, writers, directors, actors get very little compared to what they once did on NBC A, b CCBs, et cetera. So that's what's in negotiations right now. We'll see what happens. But yeah, that's a little peek behind the curtain of residuals for you.

Phoebe Sherman (16:05):
Thank you for that breakdown. I so appreciate it. I had my sister, my sister's also in the, you know, Hollywood world and I had her record a 10 minute explanation to me of what she did like last week when I saw her. Cause I was like, can you just like break it down? I'm so interested. I mean like as a business owner it's so interesting to see how these different like systems work, right? And like mm-hmm <affirmative>, oh can I pull something from this like niche, can I pull something from this? And like, I don't know, I think it's fascinating. So anyways, I love hearing all the different like wild things. So okay with the writer's strike, like how has that affect your work currently?

Chelsea London (16:42):
Basically television will be at a halt shortly and television is kind of like the crown jewel of the business. Whereas back in the day films were, there's a lot of nuance. It depends but generally television is the crown jewel of the industry. Everyone wants to do it, it pays well. It's the most exposure. So that is going to be at a complete halt until negotiations can be sorted. So you have showrunners, directors, writers free to live their life, go on vacation except with what money because they're not getting paid. So the people at the top who have money are like full on vacation life this summer leaving the country. People at lower levels are getting other jobs. So yeah, television won't exist, but indie films and commercials will and theater and standup. So still involved with standup. I'm still auditioning for very independent projects which is creatively fulfilling but less lucrative.

(17:34)
So it's a good time to hustle your other gigs. You know, I have my next season of my podcast I'm developing for the summer because it's a good time to do that. So overall there's a bit of a dark cloud over the business when one of the main ways to make money is no longer existing, it's not great. I mean this is what happened in 2020. People were very mentally unwell for that reason. I ended up taking a job at Buzzfeed during the pandemic. I was originally in their talent program and I was going in three times a week to film. Then 2020 happened so it pivoted to virtually. So I was making a lot of discrete content from home, which was actually a really good gig for the pandemic. And then once that contract ended, I took a full-time job as a producer and I made content remotely from home, conducted Zoom interviews, et cetera, which was a really cool gig cuz I said yeah, I'm available to work full-time right now.

(18:25)
So this is like a mini version of that. It's not as bad of course, but the world will focus on indie projects until television can sort its prices out. So it's a little bleak, I'm not gonna lie, there's a long road ahead because Netflix is such a genius business model. No one wants to pay more for Netflix. Netflix isn't gonna all of a sudden charge everyone a hundred dollars a month. So it's like what exactly are they going to do? And a little bit of this is because the world changed so quickly, you know, technology and AI has advanced so fast, it's not anyone's fault that said, we need to work with the world not against it. And people who are at the top of these corporations are kinda like, so what? Like if they're already making all this money, they're not gonna suddenly allocate it to creatives and to people below them. So it's really sticky. But these unions, W G A and Sagara, w G stands for the Writer's Guild of America. There's the dga, the Director's Guild of America. In fact after with the screen actors' Gud were created to protect artists and to protect creatives. So hopefully they can band together and come up with a reasonable decision. We'll see.

Phoebe Sherman (19:31):
So are you still working that full-time

Chelsea London (19:33):
Job? No. So yeah I was stopped in 2021. In my normal life I don't have time to work that many hours with all my other gigs. But because all of my other gigs existed, it was just a way to pivot and be flexible and it's like, hey, well I might as well make more money when I can. But no, I don't work for Buzzfeed anymore. So my income is from acting and from freelance social media gigs. My favorite being helping artists be more authentic and grow their followings online. But I'll take other clients that don't have to be artists. I think I can help artists best and then yeah and then like stand up and theater pay very little like live performance pays the least. I think it can ironically be the most rewarding and fulfilling. So those are things that I do out of love. I think standup is like the most fun I've ever had and unless you're, you know, have a Netflix special, it pays very little. But then my karaoke gigs pay, so yeah, live karaoke weddings will still happen. I do 'em on mitzvahs, kids parties, Netflix wrap parties, like all that stuff still happening. So yeah, that's what I'm doing right now. Wait,

Phoebe Sherman (20:41):
So is that your own business? The karaoke?

Chelsea London (20:43):
No it's the company is called Kara Karaoke. So I'm an employer of that company but it's all women. It's super baddest. My quote unquote own company is when I do the social media gigs, which I know you're very familiar with. So happy to talk about that. But I dunno if that's like boring what you talk about every week. But I'm curious how you like to grow your following and how you bring your authentic self to your work. Because I feel like you're very good at being you and bringing your personal life as well as your professional life to your social media. Could you talk a little bit more about that?

Phoebe Sherman (21:17):
I love this reverse interview. Well thank you, I appreciate that. I don't know man, it is a wild world out there. Like every day is different with how like how much it seeps into me or like how much I'm affected by it all. And ultimately I just try to like keep my head up and like keep posting and keep trying to like be myself because, that's all I can do. And I think it's just been like a really interesting shift with like the TikTok world and yeah, I mean I don't know, I just like show up. I just feel like I get like downloads and I like write a bunch of things in my notes and then I'm like what day? I don't know. You know I have a whole system if you're listening to the my episode before I like I have a batch day, Wednesday's my content day for the most part, but then I sort of like throw things up and I don't know. So do you, do you have a strategy but…

Chelsea London (22:17):
No. I wanna know about your strategy. So do you film a certain number of videos per week, per month? When you say batch day, tell me why. Yeah,

Phoebe Sherman (22:26):
So behind this computer is chaos right now because it is a batch day. I'm working on apparel today, apparel shoot. I also have new socks so we're shooting some socks.

Chelsea London (22:38):
I love new socks.

Phoebe Sherman (22:39):
So there's like sequins back here. So yeah, I'll try and shoot like a bunch of content and I try to like be really organized with my folders. So like if I hear a cute sound that's fun, I'm like okay well this is perfect for my bumper stickers, here's my already saved folder that I can just pull into cap cut or whatever and like match it with that sound. You know I keep a bunch of B roll. I think the key is you know, staying organized with all of your albums or whatever. And yeah I try and shoot a bunch of videos on Wednesday depending on like what's going on in our world with launches and stuff. I feel like it's been a little bit more willy-nilly if you will cuz I've been running all over the place and so I have a team member who runs our main account and then I run apparel and my personal and our TikTok so there's a lot of sort of like switching and like mixing and matching and we use Asana and we use Plani and we throw things up and you know, some organized chaos.

Chelsea London (23:37):
That's great. So you are actively posting on how many accounts?

Phoebe Sherman (23:40):
I guess three plus like Pinterest and we have the podcast on YouTube but that's like, I'm not like doing a YouTube channel properly and yeah.

Chelsea London (23:52):
Yeah, no it's a lot. I mean it's a lot of content coming out and it's being really organized. I've had phases where more versus less content has come out. I mean yeah, I like what you said about staying really, really organized and I'm sure you've broken that down in different episodes, but in general you shoot a bunch of content one day per week and then you assort it into different folders on your iPhone, you share those folders with your team member and both you and the team member are in charge of posting to approximately three different accounts plus a Pinterest plus a podcast. So kind of five different accounts. Yes. Okay, cool.

Phoebe Sherman (24:28):
Your email newsletter or our blog? You know <laugh>,

Chelsea London (24:31):
I'm not on your newsletter, I don't think I need to, you need to add me. Oh

Phoebe Sherman (24:34):
Yeah, join your newsletter. So okay so how did you get into you know, building other people's accounts?

Chelsea London (24:40):
Just like it happened naturally of people are always like how do you do this? And I would say it's nuanced. Like social media is definitely not my main focus. If it were perhaps it would look differently but I am an artist who shows up in online spaces. I think the podcast is the most exciting thing that I do like that I had an episode come out every week for over two years that was like my most consistent win. I was like so into it and then I said you know, this isn't for me anymore to do it weekly. So now I do seasons so I have between eight to 16 episodes come out in a row but then I take a break and I was inspired by some of my favorite podcasts are seasons and I actually get really excited when the new season comes out. So depending on where you're at, I think something weekly can feel overwhelming to a lot of people. I'm not gonna lie, weekly is what's recommended to grow a falling against

Phoebe Sherman (25:41):
We do every other week because every week I also, I can't imagine doing every week

Chelsea London (25:45):
But that's still, yeah, no that's still awesome. Every other week is still like a really big deal and anything you can do consistently is huge. But I just always had ideas for people so I've always helped my friends make Instagram content and then it just happened really naturally. I started to charge cuz so many people were asking me and if I didn't know them I would take like a quick call for free. I'm like here's some ideas. But if you wanna you know, work together more like here's what I charge, I will be honest with you, I am not great with charging. Like I'm pretty generous with my time and I like always am willing to help people for free. Like if you have a quick question like DM me or if you can voice memo me your question in one minute and I can respond to you in one to two minutes, like I will always do that for free.

(26:36)
But if you wanna be a bad B and make like serious cash, maybe don't do that. So that to me that's like a revenue that there's times in my life is like really flowing and there's times I just like have a couple clients cuz it's fun to me but I always like adding value. So if I can help someone bring their authentic presence to their social media or just alleviate a little bit of stress for them, like I'm happy to do that. And there's also a lot of actresses and artists I'll say who are older that we started as a trade. So like they have more connections in the industry and at first when I started I was like if you can introduce me to like some people I will help you with your social media. Like we're talking artists who are like very successful but you know they're older like 40 plus, 50 plus, 60 plus, 70 plus whatever their age is, they're like I don't know how to do this.

(27:21)
So I'm like cool I don't have access to these fancy people, you don't have access to figuring this out. So it was kind of like a trade. So I would say if you wanna get started with something like this or your own business, what can you offer for free and what do you need that doesn't have a price tag? Cuz for me being introduced to people, let's say casting directors or agents or producers, there's no price tag on that. Like there's literally no price you can pay for introductions. So I started when I was much younger doing that for free and then as you get older you're like okay I'm gonna flesh this out and make it more of an official business. But you know from running your own business, like it's a lot of work and it's like a lot to manage. My biggest tip for people who have their own businesses is using Acuity or Calendly for scheduling. It's just so much better. So my clients are on Zoom, they can book when they want. Do you remember like back in the day, like before I had Calendly when I started this we were like back and forth in texts to choose days and times. I'm like never again. Are you so happy with Calendly or Acuity?

Phoebe Sherman (28:21):
Oh my god, I love it. That's one of my biggest tips too, like do not waste your time. Are you filled Thursday at 12? No. How about for No, no you don't have time for that.

Chelsea London (28:30):
And my favorite thing is that people can reschedule on their own time because rescheduling happens.

Phoebe Sherman (28:38):
“ I got the notification we're good to go.”

Chelsea London (28:42):
Right? And then people can always come back and be like hey that actually didn't work. But like inevitably there will always be scheduling snafus but you do eliminate a lot of them by able to pick and choose on your own. And because I use Calendly for my podcast and my social media clients, I always laugh that I made the third tier that's just like generic virtual meetings. And when I have some girlfriends who live in different states let's say and we wanna catch up and that are not good with scheduling, I will literally text some of my good friends my Calendly, I'm like don't hate me but like this is what we're gonna need to do. And I have people that are either obsessed and they're like “Wow, thank you so much. Or they're like offended. They're like, who are you? Renata Klein from Big Little Lies like what's happening?” I'm like, sis…

Phoebe Sherman (29:26):
No that's genius. My friend group would love that. They would love that if I dropped a Calendly link. Yeah,

Chelsea London (29:33):
Sometimes it just solves the trick and it's like listen, I reserve it for the people that like cannot get it together. Like if you're one of my best friends we'll just make it work. But if you're like we're on like week five of trying to schedule a phone call, it's not happening. You're getting the Calendly link, honey.

Phoebe Sherman (29:47):
I love it. That's so good.

Chelsea London (29:48):
Yeah. So what are some of your current revenue streams? I know you have a lot but and might be obvious to the listeners, but I'd love for if you could share a little bit more about the different pillars you're involved in.

Phoebe Sherman (29:59):
Oh my god, I love this. I love the devil interview both side interview. Let's see, so we do our craft fairs and that's for the majority of our revenue. And then we do classes and courses. We have a membership and then our apparel line and partnerships. I think that's it. Yeah, that's a lot. Yeah. And then like our, we do like an online directory which kind of like files under our craft fairs. So

Chelsea London (30:22):
That's a lot. And so at this time you're not doing one-to-one clients, like if they wanna be involved like in the membership or the courses, otherwise you're focused on your craft fairs, that's the main thing that you're doing.

Phoebe Sherman (30:32):
Yeah, so I do one-on-one coaching. I do offer that. I mean I also offer like Instagram audits so there is some like one-on-one ways to book with me. But yeah, people do like one-off coaching. So we're, I mean we've, I've done group coaching before and like you know six week courses and that actually did really well during pandemic times. But I think people actually, at least my experience lately with our community is that people kind of like wanna do like a one and done situation. People don't wanna be on Zoom anymore, which I think is unfortunate cause I think there's a lot of really beautiful things that happened on Zoom. But yeah, I think people want it a little bit quicker now.

Chelsea London (31:11):
Interesting. Yeah, I think it depends. I haven't found that I feel like people are down for Zoom but that's cuz I'm not like I don't have like a full online business with like a bunch of zoom classes so you're right. I think people probably got hit harder post covid but that's cool that there's ways to book with you and I just wanted to compliment your craft fairs because I went to one Los Angeles, it was Oh yeah, so impressive. It was massive. There were so many vendors. I was like how did you find all these people and schedule them and like how does that, yeah, how does that even come to be? It was such a massive undertaking. Thought it was really impressive.

Phoebe Sherman (31:47):
Thank you la Yeah, I mean, how do we do it? I don't know. You know we've been a craft fair for six years now, so people have heard of us through the internet. We also do some reaching out to people when we're like in new spaces. Like for instance, we're in Providence, Rhode Island now and you know, we're not a member of the community yet so we do a lot of outreach and ads and like teaming up with organizations to get people to know about our show and then we have to get people there, which is harder than getting vendors there because vendors like opportunities and it's hard to get people to do anything and that's one of the reasons why we're not in LA anymore because specifically it's hard to get people in LA to do anything. But…

Chelsea London (32:32):
What are some ways that you get people there so there's natural foot traffic that people are in the area. So I imagine one of the key factors is finding a location where there's going to be people totally. But what are you specifically doing on your own to get people there? An email newsletter, social media outreach, what is that?

Phoebe Sherman (32:49):
All of it. So here in Salem there is a lot of foot traffic. That's one of the cool things about summer here because it's a destination and we're right downtown and there's like always things happening and people are walking around like weather pending. But yeah, I mean I'm a big Facebook event ads person, like I'll throw some money behind a Facebook ad, but it's wild. Like that ad money goes so much further here in Salem than Oakland, California. Like I'll put like three times the amount in Oakland and it's still like maybe half the amount of people like RSVP through that ad versus Salem. Like people over here are a little bit more hungry for it. And then we do like newspaper listings, like for any event that you throw, you can always post on newspapers for free online. And so you like wanna, you know, you wanna get show up in that seo like what is there to do this weekend and then you want your event to show up. So we do that. And then social media, email, newsletter, Eventbrite, what else do we do? Sometimes we put ads like we'll be putting out an ad in one of the Providence magazines for the holidays. I think in the past we've done like some influencer engagement and we'll probably do that again for the holidays. We also do like a goodie bag for the holidays to get people in the door.

Chelsea London (34:03):
So cool. It's really interesting to hear. It's like you know, but you know, don't know and just such a good reminder about newspapers. And why do you think there's been more success in Salem than Oakland? My theory is that it's just a little bit of a smaller town like Oakland just has so much going on. But what do you think?

(36:55)
Yeah, and I wanna throw on one more thing to the last question too. I'm a big proponent of flyers, like flyers are not dead. A paper flier goes a long way in a public place. Yeah, that's a great question. Well Salem's interesting because it's a small town but there's still a lot going on here. There's always, first of all there's tourists. So there's always like a demand for things, activities to do here in Salem and yeah I think, well in the Bay area it got really saturated. There's tons of craft fairs there and there's still craft fairs here. There's a lot of craft fairs in the Boston area. There's not really like there's no other femme forward [craft fair]. Well there's one other women's market actually over here. But I think the political thing hits a little bit harder over here than in the Bay Area. It's a little bit more like “seen that done that” over in Bay in the Bay and here it's like the uterus pin for instance that we do is like a little bit more controversial or like, I don't know, there's just like a slightly different, I mean Salem is like a liberal bubble but there's still some non-liberal folks in adjacent cities or like nearby or in town or whatever. So I think it's just like, I don't know, maybe just a little bit more empowering over here,

Chelsea London (38:09):
Right? Whereas Oakland is the liberal bubble of liberal bubbles. There's no one even nearby that is not liberal. I mean that's a generalization. There's of course “everyone is everywhere” but generally speaking Oakland is just so liberal. It's like, yeah we see uterus pins like we are the uterus of the world. Like we are uterus and salem's. Like “I'm into a uterus, like let me touch the uterus,” and Oakland is like “I am a uterus.”

Phoebe Sherman (38:37):
Hilarious. Yeah and it's so interesting. Another like random thing like you know Salem is super witchy, right? So everything's like black and dark product kind of thing. And then our pink product does really well over here maybe cuz it's like different and it's like pink and witchy rather than like dark and witchy. I don't know. So I think it's really fascinating to do location-based business, right? Because it's just different than online and I think it can be really fun and potent to like have a local sort of business plan and also have an online business plan and they might be totally different. You know, really talking to people in different spaces can be really important. I mean like even like you said, you know doing LA projects versus you know in other states.

Chelsea London (39:23):
Yeah it's so interesting. Yeah, California is just very saturated. It's very competitive as a lot of people and a lot of people with similar interests and big dreams and big bucks. So I think it's cool to expand and how cool that you are bicoastal, you've had experience in California and now on the East Coast and like you said you're expanding to Rhode Island. So I think it's awesome. Witches on witches. Let’s Go!

Phoebe Sherman (39:46):
Thanks Chels, yeah so what are some things that you help your clients with? Like what are some tips to get more seen and grow your audience and get financial opportunities from social media?

Chelsea London (40:00):
Sure. Oh my gosh, it's own hour. But if I'm gonna put it into bite-sized tips, three content buckets for Instagram, what are the three main things you wanna talk about? And for some clients the three buckets are very similar. Sometimes that's not the case but you never know who's gonna hit what when. So for me my buckets are acting and that includes promotion and generally you wanna say like add value 80% of the time and only promote 20% of the time. I totally break that rule. I genuinely believe that's the best thing you can do. But it's not always possible. So my acting bucket is like red carpet promo shows coming up, head shots, it's a little more glam. I like laugh, I like don't see myself as glam but you know we're artists, we're businesses like you have to put your best foot forward.

(40:50)
So there's that bucket. Then I have my grief bucket which is a lot more authentic. It's my personal life. Sometimes I combine the two. Mine for instance when I do a standup show about grief, that's the way that the buckets are touching. This is inspired by losing my dad to ALS when I was a teenager and my mom also combats stage four breast cancer at present she did when I was younger as well. So grief and cancer is its second bucket and my third bucket is miscellaneous a hot tip. But it's like that could be if you have a dog that goes in the miscellaneous bucket or it goes with like just something else like funny about your life. I don't do the miscellaneous bucket as much but like once in a while I call it sometimes with, we call it a wild card or miscellaneous, like sometimes it's fun to just throw something out there like completely different.

(41:38)
And there are people in my life that like only care about my dog and nothing else. Like they don't care about like comedy or my acting. And you're like okay, but now you know who I am so maybe you'll come to my standup show just cuz you have a dog. So having three different things that you rotate between and just being really, really clear about which bucket you're tapping into. I also have like a fourth bucket that's comedic videos that's like, it can just be like straight up comedy. So if you're adding value, you know reels are really important. So I'd say have your three buckets commit to which category you're going through and and like going all in, I think some people try and do a post that hits everything. So they're like, today I have a girl game craft and then I have a client and then my dog.

(42:16)
It's like no, what is your post saying? Like have your bucket be fully clear in that post. A, do reels B if you're too scared do stories but putting yourself on video, and then C for financial opportunities it's like reaching out like I will cold reach out to companies. It's not glamorous, I don't like doing it. I could do it a lot more and probably make a lot more money. But if there's a brand you're excited about, DM them. And if drafting something each time is exhausting, have something that you copy and paste in your notes folder to reach out to brands for financial opportunities. I do recommend changing the first sentence or two to being more personal but I'm not gonna lie, I have lazy days where like it's my lazy month and I'm just like nope, they don't get a personal thing this time.

(43:00)
But having like the same thing saved on your desktop for emails and in your notes for dms and reach out. And I'm also a really big fan of voice memos so this is just kind of across the board. I think it saves a lot of time, it's a lot faster than an email and more personal and I spent less time. So this is something I do in my daily life, you know I'm new to dating, uh, that always sounds weird but I was in a long-term relationship for like all of my twenties. So even like for dating like all voice memo guys and like if that like scares them, it's probably not a fit anyways but it's just like hey it's me. Like this is what I'm up to, this is what I'm about. So doing that for brand partner specifically like reaching out, “Hey I'm Chelsea, I have a grief podcast. I see that the founder of your nutrition bar lost her mom. Maybe there's a way to collaborate.” So yeah, have your contact buckets commit, put yourself on video reels is the answer. And if it's too scary, at least do stories and don't be afraid to cold reach out and use a voice memo.

Voice memo. Last thing I'll say, the reason it's so powerful is because it's short and sweet. You don't have to type an email and also you don't have to schedule because a lot of brands, you know scheduling phone calls, it's like they're busy, you're on different time zones. You can just send a voice memo into their dm, they can listen on their own time and respond and you saved tons of time. I even have girlfriends, we just catch up about dating their life. I don't know what they're doing. Some of my friends have a two year old, some of my friends have like moved to Italy and are on a boat. Some of my friends are freezing their eggs, some friends have a new dog. Like whatever the update is, send it to me in a 10 minute voice memo, I'll send one back to you. We didn't have to use Calendly.

Phoebe Sherman (44:37):
I love that. I'm a big voice memo person of my friends but I've never done that for a brand, too. That's so smart.

Chelsea London (44:42):
Oh my gosh, Phoebe, I want you to try it. I'm so curious how that goes for you.

Phoebe Sherman (44:46):
I love it and I love the thing about brand partners. I think it's really cool and everyone should do it and yes you have enough followers to do it. This is, I'm just like what in my house do I need right now? I'm not gonna paid for this but I just got an air conditioner.

Chelsea London (45:05):
You tell me about that. Wait, yeah, tell me everything I need to know.

Phoebe Sherman (45:08):
I'm just like, I need an air conditioner. Let me reach out to an air conditioning company and I'm gonna do a little brand partnership with an air conditioner.

Chelsea London (45:17):
That's amazing. And it sounds authentic cuz you actually need one. So did you reach out and what did your collaboration proposal look like?

Phoebe Sherman (45:24):
I just dmd them and that. So my steps is…

Chelsea London (45:28):
Yeah I wanna hear cuz you have more experience with brand partnerships than I so I definitely wanna hear what you have to say.

Phoebe Sherman (45:33):
It sort of depends like I kind of like to think of as my personal account as more lifestyle and GGC a little bit more tech oriented. The air conditioning people do wanna on the GGC account, so fine, that's fine. Everyone needs an air conditioner. So my thing is like I DM them, I'm just like, hi, I'm Phoebe, I'm the founder of Girl Gang Craft. Like I think my community of of hot people might want an air conditioning this season. Like I think I was like, I moved to a new apartment in Massachusetts and I don't have an AC like , I need it to be cute. I don't know. And I'm like always like what's a good email to reach out to? So I do move it to email. I also, also comment on the posts like I sent you a dm. I think that's important cuz people's dms get like flooded and then they like see who it is, right? And then so we moved to the inbox and this person I was just like, let me do a reel for you. And like, it depends, right? Like often I wanna get paid, often I wanna get paid, but like I needed an air conditioner so I was okay with a free air conditioner exchange for a video like fine . So anyways…

Chelsea London (46:45):
I love it. And they said yes. And so one free air conditioner in exchange for a

Phoebe Sherman (46:50):
Reel one video. Yeah.

Chelsea London (46:52):
Cool. That seems feasible, you know? Yeah,

Phoebe Sherman (46:54):
Yeah, so double

Chelsea London (46:55):
Watch reel. So it's a valuable tool.

Phoebe Sherman (46:57):
Yeah, so the air conditioner is sitting, it's heavy, it's sitting in my living room cuz it's been cold this week. But I will put it in on the first hot day and do a little video about it

Phoebe Sherman (47:08):
So yeah

Chelsea London (47:09):
You go girl. Well I can't wait to see it. I'll, I will comment and have Excellent, a lovely time. Excellent. I'll like and comment love. I'm excited for you to try a voice memo and sometimes they can accompany each other. So if you want the formal language, it's like sometimes you can do a voice memo in addition like hey it's Phoebe. Just like sometimes I say I guess this is the way we're connecting in today's world. Which is awesome and also funny. But yes I'm a real person and just wanted to say hi. It's just like normalizing it and oh my god I think it's gonna work well for you. I'm

Phoebe Sherman (47:38):
Excited. I think it's great. I love it. Okay, so let's talk about your podcast. Are you doing like podcast commercial slots for your podcast?

Chelsea London (47:45):
So right now I partner with Better Help and I partner with a few like B T R bars. Yeah, I have some partnerships. I am really specific though. I will only partner if the founders of the brand have lost a parent or a sibling cuz that's my audience. I think ultimately I'm set up for success because people are gonna trust and believe me cuz I'm really specific that said, if you wanna make a coin, like you do what you gotta do. So I don't judge anyone and I always say I'm open to changing that policy, like at some point I could change it, but right now it's a niche pod. So I have niche partnerships specifically those who've lost parents and siblings, although better help, you know, I think is its own category, but I found my therapist off better help. So I genuinely believe in it.

(48:35)
It's mental health based, et cetera. So there's exceptions, but yeah, that's the bulk of what I'm doing. I haven't seen a ton of crossover from podcast commercials. Like I feel like it's harder to track and I'm not exactly sure what the point is. But for people who have podcasts or thinking of getting a podcast, I think the reason to do it is you're setting your listeners up to know that like some brand partnerships and commercials will be a part of your show. So you're just normalizing it now. So if you grow later, it's not like all of a sudden now I need to do ads and B, you never know. Even a little bit of change, like making a little bit of cashier in there is cool C, it's just like people listening to the same thing over time can have a payoff, bigger picture.

(49:14)
It's also a way to like cross promo with your Instagram. But yeah, I don't know, I haven't seen a ton of success from mine personally. But I will say I definitely buy stuff that I find out about from other podcasts. So I know it works. Like from bigger podcasts I have made purchases. So that's where I'm at. I've taken on a few new like affiliate partnerships recently, which is like it's own controversial thing cuz I feel like just getting paid is better. But if some brands wanna send me free product and give me an affiliate link, I'm down to try it. I don't think it will always work, but at least if you're paid in a product that you genuinely want, I'm like, oh sure. But like I don't know if there's like dog food companies reaching out to me now, I'm like, okay, like I'll try it. If my dog like loves your food, then I will

Phoebe Sherman (50:04):
Genuinely listen. I will take free dog food any day. I've been really trying to hustle that with no success.

Chelsea London (50:09):
Well I actually, I mean I can connect you with my dog food people if you want.

Phoebe Sherman (50:13):
Amazing. Please do. She needs the very best. That's not true. I don't give her like the raw stuff.

Chelsea London (50:18):
No, it's too much.

Phoebe Sherman (50:21):
No, I don't have money for that.

Chelsea London (50:22):
What you doing for your podcast promos? Do you just find like naturally what you're promoting on like trickles over? Do you make that like a big priority right now? What does that look like for you?

Phoebe Sherman (50:31):
Yeah, I think it totally depends. So I definitely use it as like an internal commercial if you will. So we'll talk about the crafters, we'll talk about our classes, right? We have a lot of tech partnerships that are affiliate based or sometimes they pay us, for instance, flow Desk. We have a great relationship with them. Adobe, I'm an ambassador for Adobe. What else? So definitely like tech things that go really well with what we're doing.

Chelsea London (50:55):
Question, when you say you're an ambassador for Adobe, like what is the main Adobe suite or product that you're using that you find helpful? Cuz I don't use Adobe that much, but I do use it for like PDFs and like signing things digitally. Is that what you use for like I'm curious.

Phoebe Sherman (51:10):
I do Adobe Express. You might be a great ambassador for them. We should talk about that after this podcast. But I love Adobe. Adobe Express. Yeah, so they're great. And what else? Yeah, sometimes I'll just, we'll like do like a combination. I mean, then my next thing is I'm gonna try and like maybe get some stuff donated to the wedding and offer them free podcast lots. Oh

Chelsea London (51:33):
Cool.
Phoebe Sherman (51:34):

I love that. We'll see, we're just trying things, you know, it's really like hit or miss all the time. Often that slot isn't full but We'll like throw up an affiliate thing there or Yeah, it totally just depends.

Chelsea London (51:47):
And how many ads do you do per podcast?

Phoebe Sherman (51:50):
Like not more than two.

Chelsea London (51:51):
Yeah, I do like one or two in pre-roll and then one or two in mid mid-roll. What about you?

Phoebe Sherman (51:58):
Yeah, maybe less than that. It depends. It totally depends. And then we do some sponsored episodes also. Like we did a sponsored episode with a C T insurance, which is like a craft fair insurance. So that's like super in alignment. What else have we done? Yeah, so it's really all over the place. But yeah, tell us more about your podcast and a little bit more about your work with grief. I know you just came back from being a grief counselor at a summer camp also.

Chelsea London (52:26):
Yes, that's, I feel like all of these are one hour conversations. I know, sorry…we're just

Phoebe Sherman (52:30):
Making them

Chelsea London (52:31):
Into little tiny bits. But yeah, the podcast is called Dying of Laughter. I interview comedians and funny at heart humans with deceased parents and siblings. It's also expanded into wellness experts. We've had doctors, genetic counselors, funeral directors, et cetera. So it's normalizing grief through a comedic lens. So it's for people in their twenties and thirties who have lost parents and siblings and also for their friends to find a way to how to support them when they dunno what to say. So yeah, my parents were diagnosed with ALS and breast cancer when I was in third grade. So I've thought about death for a long time. I also had a cousin when I was four. She died when she was nine in an accident at school. And that's obviously really traumatic and upsetting and I just remember the adults sitting me down and how serious that conversation was.

(53:18)
I remember her, I remember these thoughts. And then my dad through ALS was paralyzed for over a decade and that certainly causes you to think about death and certainly when he died it allowed me to think about death. So I'm just here to normalize the process a little bit more. It's not to make something really sad, it's not to think about death all the time and you know it's not gonna be for everyone all the time. But I think it's important to have conversations with your parents about their will. How do they want to be buried? Do they wanna be cremated? Where's the money? How do you access their accounts? And you know, having your own will. I've have, I threw a funeral, them birthday parties, I've had will planning parties. I've just had kind of like fun ways to access and normalize grape. So that's what the show is about.

(54:09)
And just making it a little less scary. It's also reminding people to take care of their own health. Little tidbits are getting a blood test once a year, checking in on your body. Like I know people who haven't had a blood test in five years, like no shame if that's you. But just getting a blood test once a year, seeing a doctor or gynecologist once or twice a year is really important. Feeling your breasts, doing a self breast exam, all of this might sound overwhelming but I break it down into episodes so it's a little less scary. And yeah, my mom, you know she was diagnosed with breast cancer for the second time when I was 25… stage four breast cancer. And so my sister and I thought, you know, we're not gonna have parents and like, what the fuck are we gonna do about that?

(54:55)
And I didn't have a community of people who had lost both their parents, so I decided to create the community myself. Fortunately that is not the case. My mom's been doing well with her cancer for the past six years. That said, you know, it's nuanced. She's at UCSF, she has really great care. Not everyone has that. And then cancer is so unique and specific and some people's cancer will go quickly, some will last a long time. It's best case scenario that her cancer's lasting a long time because if it didn't that means she would've died. But it also brings up, you know, just a lot of other things to constantly be worrying about. I will say it's gotten a little less constant over time. It's not the main thing I think about all day every day anymore. For the first two to three years it was, but unfortunately slash fortunately I consider myself an expert with parents with long-term illnesses.

(55:45)
Like that's just my unique experience. So people started calling me and wanting advice and it's really, really personal and a lot of people don't want that broadcast, but some people do. So we, you know, have those conversations publicly for those who want to do that. And other things that I do, I volunteer as a kids grief counselor every year at Grief Camp. I'm in a one-to-one mentorship program, which is the equivalent of the Big Sisters program, but specifically for families impacted by cancer. So I've been in a one-to-one mentorship program celebrating our three years actually today. Today is the three year mark of, I've been with one child specifically who lost her mom and did not have a dad and that's its own hour podcast. And I lead virtual grief groups online to the dinner party. There's a lot of grief shit that I do. But yeah, if you have a parent who gets diagnosed or you just like wanna talk about cancer death, shoot me a DM at Dying of Laughter podcast or an email dying of laughter podcast gmail.com. I'm happy to just listen and normalize your process. Lots of info. It was long-winded but yeah, I'm a grief gal. I love it. I love talking about it.

Phoebe Sherman (56:53):
I think that's so cool. I think it's so important to have that outlet for yourself and have that community for yourself and for everyone else. I'm sure the same thing.

Chelsea London (57:01):
Thanks. Yeah, I mean it's heavy. Like listen, I've taken breaks too. Like I said, I used to be weekly and for you know, several reasons. I just was like, this is a lot. So now I'm at seasons and it's like a known break for my mental health. I mean I'm never fully on a break cause I'm always stacking episodes like behind the scenes, but like publicly promoting grief and loss and death every week was a lot. So yeah, if it feels heavy, like that's cool. It is heavy and it's not for everyone. If you don't wanna think about it, like that's okay too. But there's certain, there's just, there's certain things that I've been exposed to through my personal experiences that I've been like, holy shit, why don't people know this? Like why don't we talk about this? And also their friends in their thirties call me sobbing uncontrollably cuz their grandmother died.

(57:43)
And let me say like grandparents are extremely important and you can and should sob it. It is unbelievably tragic, any loss. And yet are you sobbing nonstop for a year because your grandma died? Like maybe that's something we need to look at as a society because best case scenario is your grandparents die and before you and if you had them until you were 30, like that's technically a good thing. But you know, it depends. It's all sad, it's all hard. But my last grandparent also died when I was in the high school. So just, you know, all my grandparents had died and then my dad died and I just thought like, this is hard, this is weird. And as American culture, you know, we put people in care homes rather than care for the elderly. So I think it's like less present. Like other cultures are caring for the sick and the deceased and the elderly so they have more access to death. For better or worse, there's someone that might be dying in your home, like eight year olds live with their great grandmothers and see it firsthand. And our culture is more like care home and like the grandparent lives somewhere else. And we also, as society, we move, we don't all live in like the same small communities we grew up in, which is generally a good thing, but sometimes it can feel removed. So I'm bringing the dead grandparents a little closer. That's what I'm doing. Just kidding. But kind of not.

Phoebe Sherman (58:59):
Okay. So one big last question for you. Like how on earth do you balance this all and what do you do to take care of yourself?

Chelsea London (59:07):
Love it. Balance and self-care, baby! Balance is, I would say like it depends. I mean probably like people listening who have different jobs or maybe like you're also a mom or you're also a dog mom or you have different revenue streams. Like every day is different, which is exciting. But it's also can be, it has its challenges. Like I think if you have one main focus, one job, like you can go farther faster. So I would say how I balance is I focus on my main tasks for that day or that week and like that's my focus and I'm not gonna get to everything every week. I'm like, that's okay. So just be nice to yourself if that resonates with you in the morning. I'm a big fan of I I write down either the night before if you're trying to fall asleep and your thoughts are buzzing, I write down my tasks for the next day, the night before or sometimes I do it in the morning.

(59:53)
So I have three main tasks today that I wanna accomplish. These are the three main things I need to hit. And then I have three bonus tasks. So it's like these are the three things that need to happen for sure. Here's the second three things that could happen and I balance it into like tech, creative and personal. So like tech is like all the business stuff and like emails I need to send creative is like when I have auditions stand up like or writing. So maybe if you're, let's say not an artist, but if you're a content creator, like the creative would be like videos and brainstorming and like more of the creative side of your business maybe. Maybe your newsletter is your creative side of your business, I don't know. And then my personal tasks are just like, I need a book, doggy daycare book this flight.

(01:00:36)
Like that's like the boring stuff. But I feel like the personal task and the booking and the Calendly like that, I think people can get stuck in because it's like easiest to do. But that stuff I do at the end of the day because like I don't wanna be spending my day just like booking flights and appointments. It's like appointments will come. But I think like if you can tackle your hardest task first, so the creative stuff, doing it first thing in the morning or at least in the first half of the day is powerful. And if not, then not like, yeah, no, our days get crazy. I'm also a big fan of 25/5, so I do 25 minutes of work, five minute break, 25 minutes of work, five minute break. That's another way I stay balanced and stay organized. And I also, last but not least, have a theme of the quarter.

(01:01:22)
So for instance like is my quarter focused on developing new standup material overall That's the main theme. Or is my quarter the new podcast season? It's not to say my podcast isn't happening all the time, but like when it's not launch season, my podcast is on the back burner and that's okay. And for self-care, I'm a big fan of foot massages. They're $20 compared to like $200 massages. So I love a foot massage. Jolly Foot in Los Angeles. I'm not sure where else I would recommend, but like look in your area, is there a $20 foot massage you can get? I think it's so powerful. Big fan of walks. I don't have time for like crazy hikes. I'm not like so, so, so athletic. But like even walks and Zumba are really helpful. I walk my dog, I have a new dog, you know this, you also have a relatively new dog.

(01:02:12)
What else can I say? I don't know, like I love cooking. That's not for everyone, but like that's therapeutic to me. And then I guess just the last tip I'll share is voice. Memoing is a way to be social even when you are by yourself. So like I have days where I work from home, I have days when my dog can't be left alone. So I have entire days where I'm like, I'm home all day today because I have my dog, I take her and we can go to the grocery store, we can get coffees with people. But I have home days and I'm like, okay, I need to be social. And a voice memo is a way you can connect instantly with someone else and it somehow scratches the itch even if they don't respond right away. I mean they're not gonna respond right away though. I

Phoebe Sherman (01:02:47):
I love the voice memo. Thanks. Should that be the title of this episode?

Chelsea London (01:02:50):
Yes. I'm obsessed.

Phoebe Sherman (01:02:51):
Chelsea and voice memos.

Chelsea London (01:02:53):
I think I've converted like everyone I know and I'm gonna convert you. So yeah, those are my tips and tricks. What about you? How do you take care of yourself?

Phoebe Sherman (01:02:59):
Oh my goodness. How do I take care of myself? I'm between ceramics. I go to the gym. I invested in a nice gym. We got the hot tub, we got the sauna, we got the pool. So we're covering all the seasons here too. That

Chelsea London (01:03:13):
Sounds lovely.

Phoebe Sherman (01:03:14):
And I'm a big walker and coffee and yeah, we, I go to the dog park twice a day.

Chelsea London (01:03:21):
You do. Oh my gosh. Does your dog love it? Does she run around like crazy?

Phoebe Sherman (01:03:25):
So it depends who's there. She's like picky. She like has her friends and otherwise she's eating sticks. Yeah, so it's like hit or miss. I have to like time it at the right time. Like we went at noon and Rufus was there, so we're good. We're normally good for hours after that. And sometimes Matt does the evening shift. Sometimes we both go. So it depends.

Chelsea London (01:03:48):
Okay, just really quick while you're here. Yeah, so my dog's a stalker. Like there's the expression stage 5 clinger, like she's the stage 12, but I, as part of our training, like I close the door in meetings, I'm like, you can smell me, you know I'm here but I'm gonna open the door and see if she runs in. Let's just see.

Phoebe Sherman (01:04:02):
Oh my gosh. She would never do that.

Chelsea London (01:04:04):
God, okay. She wasn't there. Which is actually good for her training that she wasn't just at the door. So who knows where she is. Okay, continue.

Phoebe Sherman (01:04:12):
That's awesome. Yeah, she would get really pissed if I shut her out.

Chelsea London (01:04:16):
She's right here, but But then you can leave her. I leave her for hours so that can leave her. Yeah, it's how, how many hours a day do you leave her would you say?

Phoebe Sherman (01:04:23):
Well, I mean I don't go very many places. So we can leave her for six hours, you know, like if we're going to Boston or something. Yeah. And, but if me and Matt are like out together and one of us like separates from the other, it's chaos. Like if we're like all on a walk and like I go into the store or something like it's bananas. She goes crazy.

Chelsea London (01:04:48):
Wait, she needs the two of you to be together

Phoebe Sherman (01:04:51):
Outside? Yeah, if we're outside the house, we have to all be together. Yeah. And

Chelsea London (01:04:55):
Then see dogs are so entertaining. They all have something. Wacka doodle, I love it.

Phoebe Sherman (01:05:00):
And then like I can't leave her in a car. Like if I just go inri, I mean I do like if I go ran and get a coffee, but like she is barking and so upset the whole time.

Chelsea London (01:05:08):
I always tell people though, but if you can leave your dog at home, God bless and I'm gonna get there. I'm not there, I'm gonna get there. But like yeah, I could leave her in a co, like a coffee fine. Like out in public fine. It's like, but I love when dogs have weird things. Like that's so weird that you guys have to be together. Just quick sidebar, one of my best friends who's from Mill Valley, do you know Oliver Friedman? She went to Tam. Why would you? I don't think I met her till I was later in life. But anyways, she's had a small dog for like seven years. Like to me, I'm always like, wait, now that I have a dog, I'm like, wait, people have had a dog for seven years. Like since they were like 23. Like that's wild. She's had this dog. No wait, she's okay. She just, you know, now she's in serious relationship. Moved in with her partner, great has a boyfriend. They all live together. But now when they go on walks, all three of them, her dog is stoked and runs and is so happy. But when she just walks her dog by herself, her dog is no longer down with that and she's at this dog for like seven years. I'm like, my God. Why? Why does your boyfriend need to be hilarious? I dunno. Isn't that so funny? I just love shit like

Phoebe Sherman (01:06:15):
That. I mean, my dog loves Matt more than me, for sure.

Chelsea London (01:06:19):
Really is not the number one

Phoebe Sherman (01:06:21):
Matt's the number one. I'm with her more. She's my child during the day. And why

Chelsea London (01:06:26):
Does she like Matt more? I need to know.

Phoebe Sherman (01:06:28):
I don't know. We could ask her laugh. Okay. Well this has been so great. Chelsea, can you tell everyone where we can find you?

Chelsea London (01:06:36):
This was so fun. Thank you Phoebe for having me and for the community that you've built and continue to nurture. I'm on Instagram at Chels. Who else? So that's like, who else would it be with Chel, so at Chels. Who else? You can also Google. Chelsea London Lloyd or my podcast is at Dying of Laughter podcast on Instagram. Or feel free to drop me a line at dying of laughter podcast gmail.com.

Phoebe Sherman (01:06:59):
Thank you so much for listening to the Girl Gang Craft podcast. Head to girl gang craft.com/podcast for show notes and more. See you next time.